TRANSCRIPT
ABC RADIO NEWS WITH THOMAS ORITI
15 NOVEMBER 2023
Thomas Oriti
Joining us now is the Shadow Minister for Climate Change and Energy, Ted O’Brien. Good morning. Thank you for your time.
Ted O’Brien
Good morning, Tom.
Thomas Oriti
So, what do you make (of this)? Can I ask you firstly about this AEMO report that’s out today? Let’s just start there. Pretty stark warning, a once in a decade spike in demand potentially. What do you make of those warnings from the market operator in its annual summer report?
Ted O’Brien
Tom, a stark warning indeed. I think the real story here is not a spike in demand so much as a lack of supply in the system. I think people knew that El Nino conditions are going to be hitting. Risks were high. But unfortunately, the Labor Government has a suite of policies that has been driving a premature closure of our baseload power generators. They’ve been killing off gas and renewables. Investment has stalled as a result. We have a system that lacks the necessary supply to meet the inevitably increasing demand. So, we do risk lights going off. And now we read in the newspapers today that Australian businesses are being asked to produce less over summer so that the lights can stay on in people’s homes. That’s what it’s gotten to.
Thomas Oriti
Sure, but you point out Labor policy. Sorry, but the regulators are confident that extra renewable capacity will reduce the risk of blackouts over summer. That does not appear to be in line with what you’re saying about Labor’s policies and their approach to this.
Ted O’Brien
We are hoping that we will have the generators working during the summer. But the very reason that the operator is having to come out on this is the risk is so stark and the Australian public need to know. And as you look at any of the expert predictions, estimates, including the operator, it will only get worse as the years go on.
Thomas Oriti
Indeed. I think everyone would agree with you on that. Sorry to interrupt. When you politicise it and say it’s due to a lack of foresight from Labor, Labor didn’t create El Nino conditions.
Ted O’Brien
Labor did not create El Nino conditions. And that’s not what I’m suggesting Tom, but I am saying that this is a direct consequence of Labor’s policies, that we do not have the supply in place to meet the demand. Now Labor will only want to talk about demand spiking because of El Nino, but it’s the responsibility of government to have policy in place to ensure that we have sufficient supply.
Thomas Oriti
It has been doing that, though, just to put this to you, it has been working with the industry to shore up the grid since that intervention in the national energy market last year. I mean, that has been happening. So is there anything more that you think could have been done differently to ensure that consistent supply? Then what would you have done and what did they do wrong in your view?
Ted O’Brien
Well, Tom, I don’t think they have been working on getting this right at all. In fact, they’ve been doing the opposite. And we’ve seen that clearly with their attempts to kill off the gas industry. We have seen investment in gas stall. And if you look at all of the major analysts, they are saying that we are now looking at depleting resources in Australia. We are going to be having less gas at a time when we need more. They promised to have 82% renewables on the grid by 2030, but for the first time in years, investment in renewables has stalled and they made no attempt to ensure that we were adequately prepared for the closure of Liddell. They’ve got their head in the sand on the closure of Eraring. These are the problems we have because we don’t have enough supply. Doesn’t matter whether it’s coal, gas, renewables, we do not have the supply and that is a direct consequence, unfortunately, of government policy.
Thomas Oriti
Sure. But back to my- So would your policy have been more coal?
Ted O’Brien
Our policy would have been last year in particular to not kill off gas. That’s the main thing. As for coal, we have existing coal fired generators. So what? The last thing you do is close down baseload power stations. When there is no guarantee of a replacement, you don’t turn off one system before there’s another one there. But this is what Labor’s trying to do. And as a result, the market is talking. So, the investors, whether it be in gas or whether it be in renewables, are saying, hang on, we’re not putting our money in anymore. And so that’s why we have a stalling of investment in gas and renewables in particular.
Thomas Oriti
Are you suggesting that renewable investment would not have stalled under a Coalition government?
Ted O’Brien
No, it would not have because and the data says that what you see is increasing investment under the Coalition. We are at a low ebb now on investment in renewables. That’s a fact. And the same with gas. We’re at a low ebb and this is why the real story today is not so much that demand is going to increase in summer. I mean, that is not new news. What the real risk here is there’s a lack of supply to meet that demand. That’s a direct consequence of Labor policy.
Thomas Oriti
Now, we could talk about this for quite some time, but I want to turn to the idea of a carbon tariff just while we’ve got you there. This is essentially about, you know, preventing companies from moving their production to countries where those emission rules aren’t as tight as I mentioned in the introduction there. Why do, you’ve got your views on this? Why do you think that wouldn’t work?
Ted O’Brien
Well, look, I mean, the government has released a consultation paper. The Coalition will follow that very carefully and we’ll see what they come up with. But instinctively I have concerns here because Labor’s trying to solve the wrong problem. In this case. The problem to solve is government induced de-industrialisation of the Australian economy and offshoring of Australian manufacturing. And so, you’ve got to say, well what’s driving the offshoring of Australian manufacturing? There are two things. One, energy prices are soaring. I’ve spoken to, you know, steel works, I’ve spoken to smelters who are looking at going overseas, India and China, because the price of energy is too high.
The second reason that manufacturers are going offshore or looking at doing so is because of taxes. So, the government has introduced new taxes to heavy industrial players. They’re the drivers. The consequences include carbon leakage and that’s vitally important. But it also includes a loss of jobs, a loss of sovereign capability, holding out of regional Australia. They’re the issues.
Thomas Oriti
Sure. Sorry, forgive me for interrupting but I am just thinking about the de-industrialisation route could turn this into a much longer interview than what we’ve got time for. Just in terms of this proposal, right, it is on the cards, right? There’s this idea that some overseas countries don’t have the same rules as Australia. You’ve acknowledged there that carbon leakage is an issue. So, if we’re going down this path, can’t you see an argument that something like a carbon tariff could level the playing field here? Given the current situation, if we don’t go down that broader route of de-industrialisation for a moment.
Ted O’Brien
Well, Tom, I think a carbon tariff really just mops up Labor’s carbon tax, right? So, what you can be sure of is, prices will go up and Australian consumers will have to pay. So that’s what it’s all about.
Thomas Oriti
If you feel it’s mopping up the carbon tax. If not, a carbon tariff, you’ve acknowledged yourself to send the carbon leakage is an issue. How would the Coalition limit it?
Ted O’Brien
Well, the key thing is you need to work with industry to ensure they can decarbonise with the right technologies, but instead what Labor has done is instead of ensuring the technologies are there to decarbonise, they have enforced a punitive carbon tax, which is the harshest globally. As a result, companies are saying, well, we haven’t got the technology to get it down. We can’t pay this tax. So, we’re going to go offshore and that’s the problem you see that needs to be solved. Introducing a tariff is sort of taxing imports and all that means is every Australian consumer will pay more in the midst of a cost-of-living crisis, not less.
Thomas Oriti
Can I just play you a bit of audio for a minute? I just want to get your thoughts on it. President Joe Biden announced $6 billion in new climate funding overnight, and he says the crisis needs to be taken seriously. I just want to play it to you. We’ve come to the point where it’s foolish for anyone to deny the impacts of climate change anymore.
Just finally, I just want to hear, can I hear your response to comments like that? Do you do you agree that anyone who denies the impact of climate change is condemning people to a dangerous future, Ted O’Brien?
Ted O’Brien
Look, I think in Australia we’ve had too long with the “argy bargy” on you know, should we act on climate change? Absolutely we should. And I believe the vast majority of Australians believe that we should act on climate change. The question before us as a nation is:
Not why act, but how to act?
And I do not believe that the way to reach net-zero by 2050 is punitive taxes, tariffs and de-industrialisation. The Australian economy, risking the lights go out there is a different way to decarbonise the Australian economy. It’s not about why act on climate change, but now a question of how.
Thomas Oriti
Thank you very much for your time. Ted O’Brien there joining us, Shadow Minister for Climate Change and Energy.
Ted O’Brien
Thank you very much, Tom.