Transcript below.
Thomas Oriti
Climate Summit global leaders have agreed to transition away from fossil fuels nearly 200 countries agreed to a deal. This is historic, it’s the first time fossil fuels have ever been mentioned in a COP decision. It’s the 28th meeting. Australia’s Climate Change Minister Chris Bowen says the COP28 summit has sent a clear message that our future is in clean energy and the age of fossil fuels will end that’s a quote from the minister. The government supported a pledge to triple global renewable energy capacity and double the annual rate of energy efficiency improvements by 2030. But it did not sign up to a commitment by 22 countries to triple nuclear energy capacity by 2050. Now, this is an issue close to Ted O’Brien’s heart, he’s the Shadow Minister for Climate Change and Energy who traveled to COP to promote nuclear energy and joins us now. Good morning. Thank you for your time.
Ted O’Brien
Thank you, Tom.
Thomas Oriti
Do you mind, I’ll ask you about nuclear in a moment because I know that’s an issue that means a lot to you, but just just first, what do you make of the agreement at COP28 encouraging countries to move away from fossil fuels to quickly ramp up renewable energy? Some countries specifically low islands, Pacific Nations, for example, say it doesn’t go far enough. How do you feel about that? final deal?
Ted O’Brien
Oh look, I think the final deal is far better than what Chris Bowen was proposing, because it provides sufficient flexibility for nations to map their own path to net zero and the Coalition believes in an ‘All-of-the Above’ approach, which means individual nations like us need to develop those technologies that will work for our own country. So I think that’s a good outcome. It really is pragmatism prevailing over ideology. And so that’s good. I also know that the final communique promotes some of the technologies that the Coalition believes in, but Labor hasn’t believed it and that includes carbon capture and storage, so that you can abate fossil fuels as well as it it does include zero emissions nuclear energy.
Thomas Oriti
Is it ideological though? Many people were saying that they simply wanted a concrete phasing out of fossil fuels. There was never a suggestion we weren’t going to be seen fossil fuels tomorrow. They just wanted a concrete deal to phase them out.
Ted O’Brien
Well, look, the problem I had with where Chris Bowen was going into COP was he had misdiagnosed the problem of climate change. The core problem for us to tackle is emissions. We need to get emissions down.
Thomas Oriti
You think Chris Bowen Doesn’t agree with that?
Ted O’Brien
No, instead Chris Bowen and Labor they believe the core problem to solve is the existence of fossil fuels. The problem is not the technology but rather the emissions they generate, which is why we need to be open minded to technologies that drive those emissions down. That’s that’s the key and I’m at least happy now that the communique has rejected the extreme position of Chris Bowen, and now allows for some flexibility so that we can tackle the primary issue here.
Thomas Oriti
Do you acknowledge though that fossil fuels are the main driver of climate change?
Ted O’Brien
Absolutely, which is why you need to have abating technologies. That’s the key.
Thomas Oriti
Okay, and you’ve gone into what some of them are. However, can I just ask about our Pacific neighbors though, though they were really living with the real impacts of climate change. Some of them very upset about this decision. In fact, we’re hearing overnight some of them are concerned that were left out of the plenary room when the concluding deal with was decided to do you understand why some people might be upset.
Ted O’Brien
Is that right? I actually I actually wasn’t aware of that. That they had been left out so no look that’s news to me. I think I mean, you know, these multilateral negotiations, often their communiques, you know, reflect compromise and a high degree of ambiguity. But they have to be pragmatic and if not, then it’ll be a complete waste of time, right. So I think it’s very rare in any of these situations that you have any country saying, Well, I got exactly the wording I wanted. I personally am happy with where it’s landed because it has rejected the very ideological position that Chris Bowen took into COP, a position that was very different, by the way, from what he was saying only a month ago, only a month ago, he gave a big speech at CEDA here in Australia, promoting the importance of gas to electricity, manufacturing and industry. And literally weeks later, he’s standing over in the United Arab Emirates, saying that we don’t need any more gas. So there was a lot of confusion from Labor’s side but I think the world sorted it out and so I’m glad we’ve now got a high degree of flexibility.
Thomas Oriti
So, as you say, you know the art of compromise and I think you know, Chris Bowen will probably be quick to say he’s not the only one who went in with that mentality. But can I just ask you, though about about nuclear though because you used your visit to push for a nuclear future for Australia, and that you told reporters a Coalition wouldn’t support tripling the world’s renewable energy capacity as part of that COP pledge. Why?
Ted O’Brien
Well, I actually didn’t say that. What I said was that while I hadn’t seen the final communique on the tripling of renewables, I have no problem with the world actually signing up to that, nor do I have a problem with Australia signing up to that pledge for the world to triple renewables. However, what I said was, I don’t support Australia tripling its renewables within this decade, which is what the pledge says.
Thomas Oriti
Why would Australia not do it, but you support the world doing?
Ted O’Brien
Well, the world has, you know, let’s say round figures, about 10% of its electricity mix wind and solar. Australia has well over 30% And so a tripling of Australia’s renewables gives us all of our eggs in one basket a ‘renewables only’ electricity grid. No other country is going down that path. I think it’s highly dangerous, and it’ll only lead to higher prices. And a far more unstable grid in Australia. We believe the Coalition side that renewables is going to play a really important role, they do today. They will in the future, but they can’t do the job on their own. We need ‘All-of-the-Above’ approach, which includes a mix of technologies. And that’s why I oppose the idea of Australia, you know, we basically triple our renewables, you’re basically saying that we have a complete completely renewables grid. Prices will skyrocket even further and be more unreliable.
Thomas Oriti
Forgive me we’ve only got about a minute left before the news so nuclear that matters to you. I did tell you we’d discuss it. So why do you say that that is in the best interest of Australia?
Ted O’Brien
It’s what our friends and allies are doing. If we want to learn the lessons from overseas. Those countries that are doing a better job than Australia at decarbonizing. Australia’s emissions are going up right now prices, some of the highest in the world and our grid is unreliable. Whether it be the United Kingdom, the United States, Canada, France, Japan, they are all saying nuclear needs to be part of the mix. It’s not the silver bullet solution, but it can work in complement with renewables and I think Australia should be considering this. There is no path to net zero without nuclear energy. That’s John Kerry’s view. That’s Canadians views the UK view. And I think it is definitely should be Australia’s view.
Thomas Oriti
Okay, thanks for joining us.