4 December 2023
E&OE…
Topics: COP 28, Nuclear Energy,
Hamish Macdonald
Dozens have gathered in Dubai this week for the COP28 Climate Summit, with more than 100 countries this year pledging to triple world renewable energy use by 2030. The conference though faces real challenges with revelations, most fossil fuel producers aren’t accurately counting their emissions, and the summit’s President casting doubt on the science behind the need to phase out their use. 20 countries including France and the United States have pledged to triple nuclear energy capacity by 2050. Australia did not join that pledge, a move the opposition is labeling foolish. Ted O’Brien is The Shadow Minister and Minister for Climate Change and Energy. He’ll be off to the COP conference later this week. Good morning to you, welcome back to breakfast.
Ted O’Brien
Thanks very much, Hamish. Great to be with you.
Hamish Macdonald
Why is Australia foolish not to sign up to this pledge on nuclear energy capacity?
Ted O’Brien
This is big news for a COP so the world’s biggest climate change summit, previously COPs have never taken this move with zero-emissions nuclear energy. But as John Kerry from the United States said himself when making this announcement at COP only 48 hours ago ‘you can’t get to net zero without some nuclear’. And I think that’s key because here in Australia, we grapple with how to tackle climate change just like other countries do. And one of the lessons that I have learned as I’ve looked across the world at peer nations, is there is no credible pathway to reach Net Zero without zero-emissions nuclear energy. That’s why this is so important.
Hamish Macdonald
On that though, John Kerry is not saying Australia can’t get there without nuclear. This is a broader commentary on the global picture. And clearly there are many nations that do have nuclear capacity and will continue to use that into the future. But why is it necessary that Australia must do this in your view, given that we are blessed with so many renewable resources?
Ted O’Brien
Hamish, this certainly is not a comment against renewables, we need renewables too, in fact, we need an ‘All-of-the- Above’ approach where every technology is considered. So will renewables play an important role on our grid moving forward? I believe they will and they should, but the comments from John Kerry are just as relevant to Australia as they are other countries. Why, to answer your question…
Hamish Macdonald
Australia has a natural advantage in the in the renewable space. So I suppose that’s the difference and that’s what I’m trying to get out here.
Ted O’Brien
Well, look, I mean, Australia has lots of natural advantages. You could also say Australia has the, the greatest reserves of uranium in the world, right? You could say Australia is a world leader with its natural advantages in gas. So you know, we are blessed as a nation. So what we have to do is work out the best best pathway to get there. But firstly, we’re talking here about a technology that’s zero emissions. We’re talking about a technology that gets prices down. And so Canada was another signatory to the communique at COP. If you look at the province of Ontario, they have up to 60% Nuclear in their mix, and their households pay half of what we do in Australia. Their grid is 1/10 as dirty. In other words, only 1/10 of emissions as Australia. We also saw yesterday that President Macron suggesting Australia should lift its ban on nuclear energy. And France has around 70% and they pay among the cheapest electricity in Western Europe.
Hamish Macdonald
So, what proportion of our energy mix should be nuclear in your view.
Ted O’Brien
Well, we’re doing a lot of work on trying to answer that very question as we speak, but you can only you can only answer that question within the context of your own system, your own electricity grid. And what you can’t do or what I refuse to do is do what Labor has done with his 82% target. Labor tried to get 82% target of renewables by 2030 without doing any of the analysis Hamish..
Hamish Macdonald
I’m asking you about some questions about your policy and what your approach is here. There’s plenty of time to discuss the other side and what the government proposes but. Are you then.. because you’re not able to say what proportion of the energy mix it would be, you can’t really then say how much it would cost.
Ted O’Brien
We will be announcing how much energy we believe should be coming from different sources as we move forward. Hamish, but if you want to know our approach, it’s this
Hamish Macdonald
Before the next election?
Ted O’Brien
Of course before the next election, we’ll be very clear about the plan. Unlike labor, Hamish and I have to make that point. Because only last week, the climate change statement came down. Chris Bowen goes to COP with emissions in Australia going up, going up Hamish right now what wasn’t the case over the last term of government under the Coalition This is because they didn’t do the comprehensive work that coalition is doing right now on policy. But if likely about renewables are running at 1/10 the pace of rollout that Labor promised we’re going to Summer with the risk of blackouts Hamish and all of this is because Labor actually never did the due diligence. We are doing that right now. And we’re being led by an ‘All-of-the-Above’ approach that considers all technologies to get prices down, keep the lights on and to make sure we are also driving down emissions.
Hamish Macdonald
But the coalition had a decade in power it could have built nuclear it could have pushed the nuclear industry forward. I note that Tony Abbott, when asked about it back in 2014 said he was open to the idea much as you are you know the sort of equal opportunity energy mix anyone that wants to be part of the mix, can can get involved. But he said he’s not going to do it if there’s an expectation of a government subsidy, if there’s a good business model there someone will come forward and do it. Isn’t that part of the problem, that it’s incredibly expensive and you’d need government subsidies to get a nuclear industry up?
Ted O’Brien
Oh, look, there’s no doubt that you need government involved. As you do, as you reform any major energy system, Hamish that again, what’s going to be different with the Coalition is we’re doing the sums on that and we’ll be transparent when we announce our policy. Labor only a week ago announced an expansion of its capacity investment scheme. This is going to cost 10s of billions of dollars. They have not told us exactly how much it’s going to cost. It is a blank check that mops up the fact. They had promised 82% renewables on the grid by 2030. They have failed miserably. Everybody knows that. But now it’s going to be the taxpayer that will have to mop it up. And we don’t know how much is going to cost, Australians should not be in that situation.
Hamish Macdonald
But Ted O’Brien you’ve said exactly the same thing. You want the taxpayer to help get the nuclear industry up and you also can’t tell us how much it would cost.
Ted O’Brien
Sorry, Hamish, just to be clear, are you wanting me to announce how much our policy is going to cost before we announce our policy?
Hamish Macdonald
Well, you’re saying that Australia should sign up to this pledge at COP, yet you can’t tell us what proportion of the energy mix it would be in Australia. You can’t tell us how much it would cost but you are saying that the tax..
Ted O’Brien
The pledge, the pledge in COP is not one where each individual signatory comes forward and says this is exactly the money we’re contributing. It’s not a it’s not a you know, a funding pool where individual countries are saying this is how much nuclear we want. That’s not the point. So what so you know, I’m with all due respect, what you are asking me to reveal is not relevant for what is going on in COP at the moment.
Hamish Macdonald
Would you welcome a nuclear facility in your electorate?
Ted O’Brien
I would absolutely welcome a nuclear facility, whether it be in my electorate or any electorate around the country, where it is proven to be technologically feasible, has a social license, and is going to get prices down. Now, we will be very clear as an opposition as a Coalition, on answers to all of these questions. But this is why Hamish we need to have an open mind. Right now, where we have bipartisanship in Australia, it is to get to net zero. Labor is failing on every count. Prices they promised $275 reduction power bills, households are paying some of the highest prices in the world they’ve gone up by up to $1,000 emissions are going up the EV target is running 1/3 of what they said renewables according according to the Clean Energy Council one tenth. So as Australia, we have to be humble enough at these conferences at COP to say what other countries doing?’ what peer countries are doing is they are saying we are looking at nuclear energy as part of a balanced mix. We must in Australia be driven not by ideology, by economics and engineering and learn from those countries and that includes consideration for zero-emissions, nuclear energy. And people can run the NIMBY argument all they like, but we will be very open and transparent as we always have been.
Hamish Macdonald
We’ll have to leave it there. Appreciate your time this morning. Thank you very much. The Shadow Minister for Climate Change and Energy Ted O’Brien.