23/05/2024
Topics: Zero-emissions nuclear energy, CSIRO GenCost report, Australian Republican Movement
Tom Elliott
All right, well, The Age newspaper has leaked this morning at least seven sites around Australia where the federal coalition, if it eventually wins government, might build nuclear power plants. Our next guest is the federal Shadow Minister for Climate Change and Energy. Ted O’Brien. Good morning.
Ted O’Brien
Great to be with you, Tom.
Tom Elliott
Now the Latrobe Valley here in Victoria is listed, as is Anglesea, are they both sites you’ve got in mind for nuclear power plants?
Ted O’Brien
Look, there’s no doubt that for good reason people are keen to know where we might be looking at for zero emissions power plants. But we haven’t yet announced that, Tom, and unfortunately, I won’t be able to announce that with you today. But what we have made clear is that as we learn the lessons from overseas, there’s a lot of merit as coal exits the system to introduce a very similar like-for-like 24/7 power system that can do the same job as coal, but it’s zero emissions. And then when it comes to locations, and the Department of Energy, actually in the United States has been big on this one, there’s a lot of merit to be going to those communities that have experienced hosting coal plants. That’s partly because it’s cheaper. You can use existing infrastructure, transmission lines and the like. You don’t have to rebuild that, you can connect in and use it. But also for those local communities, as I’ve gone around the world, researching this, the local communities which host zero emissions, power plants end up being the big winner. You know, roundabout, I think it’s 77%, the Department of Energy in the US says, 77% of a workforce in a coal plant can seamlessly transition into a nuclear plant, the same occupation. So for those local communities, that’s great for jobs. That usually attracts a lot of energy intensive businesses, and they see big infrastructure upgrades.
Tom Elliott
Yeah, because I mean, well, I know you don’t want to comment specifically on the Latrobe Valley. But I mean, Gippsland has had a pretty tough time recently, coal fired power plants shutting down the forestry industry, the timber industry is shutting down as well. So, they need more job opportunities there.
Ted O’Brien
Yeah, and look, I think we find around Australia, it’s similar in other countries by the way, those communities which have hosted coal plants, they’re the ones which are under threat at the moment. You know, they’re losing big employers. I was in Wyoming last year in the United States, and they see a transition a place called Kemmerer. An old Norton coal plant, closing down, they’re looking at a zero emissions nuclear plant, and that has completely revived that town, which is why, you know, that part of the US people are bidding to host a nuclear plant because of it actually delivers such big wins for host communities.
Tom Elliott
What about the timeframe and the cost? There was a report by the CSIRO which got leaked yesterday, and the CSIRO reckons the first plant wouldn’t be operational for almost 15 years, and will cost I think, either $15 or $16 billion. Are those numbers correct?
Ted O’Brien
No, so look, the experts around the world with whom we’ve engaged have said if you build small modular reactors, then you probably could get electrons on the grid in Australia in a 10-year period, after you’ve made the decision to do so. Then the next generation large reactors, you know, they’ll be two to three years longer, probably. And then on the costs. There was a lot of stuff that went out last night or yesterday, from the CSIRO, I think the 16 to 18 billion that you quoted there, that’s assuming almost a 100% premium on the cost of a new plant. So basically, what they’ve said is, alright, if you have first of a kind, they call it, so a new design, reactor, all that sort of thing. It’s almost 100% premium cost. Australia should not be looking at first of a kind reactors. We need to be looking around the world and saying what is the proven technology? And therefore, a lot of those sort of cost premiums don’t come in.
Tom Elliott
Yeah.
Ted O’Brien
The most important thing for us, which is why we’re doing this in the first place, Tom, is to look at what is the cheapest way of delivering electricity to consumers and businesses?
Tom Elliott
So, who do we partner with? I mean they often seem to be America, France, possibly South Korea, Japan, who do you reckon it’d be the ideal country or companies that we should partner with to build these things?
Ted O’Brien
Well, you certainly mentioned there, Tom, some of the key nations with whom we could ally. I won’t mention specific companies because our plan is to win the next election, and I’ll be the one in the seat negotiating. So, I don’t want to be sort of pre-empting any particular company, other than to say like, but you are right, they’re, you know, they’re global tier one companies that provide the technology of nuclear energy that have been operating for years, right? Like for decades they run plants the world over. These are the sorts of companies with whom we would be dealing, we wouldn’t be building, you know, designing our own special Aussie reactor, absolutely not. We’d be going to proven, trusted technology.
Tom Elliott
All right. And I guess, another big thing that people would want to know about, like, let’s just say you win the next election. So we’ve got the Peter Dutton, leads a federal Liberal government and Ted O’Brien, you’re the Minister for Climate Change and Energy. But you’ve got all these state Labor governments like here in Victoria, who say, no, no nuclear power is evil. We’re not going to do anything with it. Could you build them with an oppositional state government or governments?
Ted O’Brien
Tom, I genuinely believe that once the Australian people, especially potential host communities, see the benefits of hosting, zero emissions, nuclear power plants – the people do the talking. And I think ultimately, whether it be, you know, state governments, whether it be other industry players, I think, when the day comes, they will be on board. And again, I say this based on – and I spent enormous amount of time researching, personally visiting, overseas countries. Once you see the win that communities had by hosting these 24/7 power plants. Those communities themselves speak the loudest. And we are in a democracy, and I think doesn’t matter your tier of government. Politicians will listen when the communities themselves say you know what, this is a winner for our future.
Tom Elliott
Okay, and finally on a completely different subject. I know that you were actually chairman of the Australian Republican Movement for about three years between 2005 and 2007. Over the last 24 hours Nova Peris and then Craig Foster both resigned as the co-chairs the Republican movement. It’s been rumored that the Prime Minister Anthony Albanese will strip Matt Thistlethwaite in the Federal Parliament of the ministry of the Republic. You know, to move towards an Australian Republic. Did you think the Republican movement is dead now?
Ted O’Brien
No, look, I don’t think it’s dead, Tom. I don’t pretend to know the ins and outs, by the way, of what’s happened there at the leadership level. But nor do I think that a referendum on a republic is imminent. Far from it. I mean, ultimately it requires the Australian people to be sending a very loud message that the time is right. It needs to be at the right time for the right reasons and with the right model. And all those ducks are not in a row. So I don’t see it happening anytime soon. But just because there’s a leadership change, I don’t think that spells the end of the movement at all.
Tom Elliott
And just quickly, I have one more question on nuclear power, could you guarantee, you know, in 10 years’ time, if we have a small modular reactors and maybe some bigger reactors that, you know, your average household – the power prices will go down?
Ted O’Brien
I am 100% confident that power prices will go down. So, if you look at the province of Ontario and Canada, you know, they have up to 60% nuclear in their grid, their households pay 14 cents, remember 14 cents a kilowatt hour. 14 cents. In Australia, we pay up to as high as 56 cents per kilowatt hour. I mean, this is – I’ve learned this the world over which is why I’m so keen on nuclear, right, it gets prices down. And we see that time and time again, across multiple nations. So, I’m supremely confident that it will get prices down while providing consistent clean energy.
Tom Elliott
Thank you for your time, Ted O’Brien there federal Shadow Minister for Climate Change and Energy.