19 June 2024
Kelly Higgins-Divine
Dutton has dropped a nuclear bombshell today. He’s unveiled a proposal to build seven nuclear reactors across the country if the coalition wins the next election. Two of them would be in Queensland. The plants would be government owned and the coalition has promised they would be operational by 2035-37. Ted O’Brien is the federal LNP member for Fairfax and Shadow Minister for Climate Change and Energy. He’s done a lot of the coalition’s groundwork on its nuclear energy plan. Shadow Minister, good afternoon. Okay, the LNP in Queensland is opposed to removing the ban on nuclear. So how do you convince your state counterparts that this is the way to go for our energy needs?
Ted O’Brien
Hello, Kelly. Look, Kelly, our focus is very much trying to carry the Australian people. And I think politicians of all political stripes will continue on this journey with us. I’m actually not all that concerned. There are different political leaders across the country that have made comment today, and that’s fair enough because of course, we released an aspect of our policy today. But none of those comments are different from what’s been said in the past. Hand on heart, we genuinely believe that unless we change direction, with our energy mix in Australia, well, the lights are going to go out, prices will soar jobs will be shed and industries will collapse. It’ll make us poor and nation the nation weak. So we genuinely believe that we need to change direction. And I’ve done a fair bit of work, as you mentioned, looking overseas understanding what works best. And the answer to that is a balanced energy mix. And that’s what we’re talking about today.
Kelly Higgins-Divine
So when you say an energy mix, how much of of this mix would nuclear take up?
Ted O’Brien
We’re yet to release the financials and the energy mix for the future that’ll be in due course. What we’ve done today is we’ve released the locations, the benefit scheme, and the general plan. As you look across the world though, Kelly, there’s no sort of proxy country where you can just copy and paste their energy mix. If you look at somewhere like Ontario in Canada, I mean, they have an enormous found like 50 to 60% in their mix. Mind you their households pay about 14 cents a kilowatt hour. In Australia, it’s as high as 56 cents a kilowatt hour. And then other countries have lower proportions. The big problem we’re trying to solve here is over the next 10 years, Australia will see 90% of our 24/7 baseload power, leave our electricity grid, and there won’t be a replacement there in time. And so Labor really is turning off our existing system without having another one ready to go and this is where nuclear is so important, because it is always on 24/7. And and it’s zero emissions.
Kelly Higgins-Divine
Ted O’Brien, can I ask you, we’ve – we’ve heard examples today of two nuclear plants in the US. Seven years late, it took 18 years to build, $17 Billion US over budget. They cost $40 billion Australian each to build, there is no way on God’s little green earth is there that you’re going to be able to get these nuclear reactors or seven of them up and happening by 2035 to 37. Just none.
Ted O’Brien
Kelly, I don’t know what examples you’re talking about there. But you know, people can shoot a – fire a gun, at any technology. But to then conclude it’s not feasible, wouldn’t make sense…
Kelly Higgins-Divine
You can’t though, can you? You can’t build these by 2037, I understand what you’re trying to do. But to say you’re going to have seven nuclear reactors built around the country in – by 2037, that – that’s not going to happen, where are you going to get the people to do it? With the skills to do seven of them, and it would be simultaneously?
Ted O’Brien
Kelly, that’s actually not our policy.
Kelly Higgins-Divine
So what is your policy?
Ted O’Brien
So – so, with respect, I’ll just finish that other point, by the way. You know, if you look at Snowy Hydro, the cost of that has just gone through the roof, right? But you don’t therefore say well, hydro therefore should never be considered in any mix. You’ve seen major solar projects fall out because it costs but you don’t therefore knock off solar and say, oh we don’t to do solar anymore. You know, you can always look around the world and choose a project and go oh gee, the cost went out of control, but you don’t therefore rule out technolgy. There’s a reason why 19 of our other G20 advanced economies are embracing zero emissions nuclear energy, it makes sense, it stacks up, and brings prices down. But onto the…
Kelly Higgins-Divine
CSIRO has said it doesn’t bring – it won’t bring prices down.
Ted O’Brien
Well, the CSIRO, it actually hasn’t done the the estimate on what it would do to electricity prices that appear in your bill at home or my bill at home, it hasn’t done that. Ultimately, we receive our bills at home based on entire system costs. And that includes your network charges, that includes the green schemes. That includes the distribution lines. But once you do a total system cost, which is what we’ll pay for, around the world once they do it, they say need nuclear in the mix. There’s no silver bullet, but working in a complementary fashion with renewables and with gas. And that’s what we’re looking at. Kelly can I just go back to your earlier question, and I sort of – having – once it got to the end of your explanation about having seven nuclear power plants up and running and operating. I think you said 10 years, I understand now why you did sound exasperated about the possibility. That’s actually not our policy. That’s not our policy.
Kelly Higgins-Divine
When would you have them up and running?
Ted O’Brien
So what we’ve said today is that we have announced seven locations where we believe we are proposing to build zero emissions nuclear power plants. Now, the first electricity that could come onto our electricity grid from the first unit of the first plant could be as early as 2035, if they are the small modular reactors, but 2037 would be the first electricity coming on the grid, if it were the modern, larger plants. And so we certainly, as you sort of mentioned before, we’re certainly not suggesting for a moment that you would have an entire fleet of seven nuclear power plants up and running in the country in a decade.
Kelly Higgins-Divine
All right, so who gets the first one?
Ted O’Brien
So we have announced today also the process by which those seven locations would be assessed, we would be establishing an independent body, the Nuclear Energy Coordinating Authority. So these will be the experts, you don’t want politicians making decisions when it comes to the the technical aspects of these power plants. So a – an independent body would be doing a full assessment of these seven locations. And that would take place over a period of time, when there would also be an enormous amount of community engagement, because ultimately, it’s the host communities who really are the major winners from a civil nuclear program. Only after those activities have done would the two establishment projects be decided upon. So it’d be based on getting the advice from the experts. And they’re the ones, Kelly by the way, who would advise as you expect on all areas of technical aspects, including what reactor type and so forth. You know, these will be government owned plans, but we need to ensure that the experts do it. And they do it with independence. So there’s integrity, which is best practice around the world. And that’s what we’re adopting.
Kelly Higgins-Divine
Ted O’Brien is the federal LNP member for Fairfax and Shadow Minister for Climate Change and Energy. This is 612 ABC Brisbane with Kelly Higgins-Divine at 5:16pm. Just on this,why not release the modeling? Why not release the costing of of what this will be? Why not do it now?
Ted O’Brien
Oh, we will in due course. We will in due course.
Kelly Higgins-Divine
But you’re not being very open about the price, which is probably one of the sticking points, isn’t it?
Ted O’Brien
Because we have said for some time now as we continue to release different aspects of our energy policy that we’re not doing it all at once. We will absolutely get to – get to be releasing the economics on this because, you’re right, it is important. And if you say well, why are we doing it? It’s because we need to get prices down. And I’ve been very critical, Kelly, as you may or may not know that, you know, the Albanese government promised every one of your listeners that they would get a $275 reduction in household power bills. Now, Australians, you know what – nearly six and a half billion dollars have been announced through budgets federally, since then, for powerbill relief. And still they can’t deliver on that. So prices are going through the roof. So, you’re right, the economics are key, and we will release that. But it’s just not what we’re releasing today. Today we’re releasing the locations and the benefits and some of the plans that I’ve just outlawed.
Kelly Higgins-Divine
Yep. Ted O’Brien, if – if this goes through, you’re saying the first one would be done by 2037. That’s when whichever area it is needed – it is near would get electricity. So…
Ted O’Brien
Depending on the type of reactor, yes.
Kelly Higgins-Divine
Yep. So what happens if that’s not Queensland? And we have coal powered stations that are finishing in 2035? What are we going to do? What is the LNP going to deliver for us?
Ted O’Brien
So, Kelly, it’s actually a similar question across the rest of the country, which is why…
Kelly Higgins-Divine
I don’t care about the rest of the country, I care about Queensland. I care about Queensland.
Ted O’Brien
I’m a Queenslander… …this transcript will go outside of Queensland. I better not agree with you, Kelly, on that. But look we made sure as we did the analysis of potential locations, and then we settled on these seven, that each state in mainland Australia will have the opportunity to try to have one of those two establishment sites. Now the plan, of course, is not to stop after two established sites, there will be a deployment beyond there. Because there is just no credible way for Australia to reach a net zero electricity grid without zero emissions nuclear energy. And again, we learn from overseas, it’s the only way you can keep the prices down, the lights on. So as for which state that will ultimately be the beneficiaries of the establishment…
Kelly Higgins-Divine
So you’ll start a bidding war,Ted O’Brien?
Ted O’Brien
Well, I have to say a few days ago, Kelly, I don’t know how much you follow your nuclear energy stories globally – but in Wyoming, in the United States, they broke ground on a coal to nuclear project. It’s actually the Bill Gates technology. And in Wyoming, they never had any nuclear, they’re very cold dominated. But once they made a decision that they would go from coal to nuclear, which is what we’re proposing, they have four main coal plant regions. And all of them hit it really hard because they – they realized that, you know, you asked me about cost before – they realized that what matters is they could get value for money. And it’s the communities themselves, that ended up being the real winners, especially those that have had coal plants, because you’ve got about, I think, the Department of Energy in the United States estimates 77% of coal plant workers can transition seamlessly into a nuclear power plant. In their same occupation. So you can imagine what even that does to an existing workforce. But when you you…
Kelly Higgins-Divine
Sorry, sorry to interrupt. We did talk to a Gladstone Councillor about this a little bit of what he had to say.
Cr Kahn Goodluck [grab]
I’ve read the CSIRO CostGen reports (sic), you know, the CSIRO, scientific independent body in our nation. They’ve done all the cost analysis. I actually spoke about – against this at a motion at the Australian Local Government Association National Conference a couple of years ago, when they were talking about this. And the reality is nuclear is the most expensive form of energy for us here in Australia. We don’t have any civilian nuclear industry. So even to build nuclear sites, the vast majority of expertise we would need to do that we’d have to import from other nations.
Kelly Higgins-Divine
Councillor Kahn Goodluck from Gladstone Regional Council, he was saying that there’s no way that amount of transition to jobs is going to happen. If it’s a nuclear reactor – it’s a nuclear power plant.
Ted O’Brien
With all due respect to the good Councillor, the modeling to which he refers assumed that a nuclear power plant would only last about 30 years but that these plants are designed for 80 years, and the latest designs will probably be able to go up extension for a 100 year life of an asset. So the report he referred to assumed only 30 years. Also, the report he referred to suggested that nuclear power plants might only run just over half the time, but one of the real benefits of zero emissions nuclear energy is it’s always on. It has the highest, they call it capacity factor, right. A utilization – like always on – across all energy types and – and so he’s read the wrong report if he think that represents how that – we would be operating zero emissions nuclear energy in Australia.
Kelly Higgins-Divine
The CSIRO is the wrong report? The CSIRO, Australia’s peak scientific body is the wrong report?
Ted O’Brien
The CSIRO report does not model what we are proposing. In actual fact it models, those assumptions that I just mentioned, which do not operate anywhere in the world. And I’ve spoken the CSIRO about this by the away and they didn’t they didn’t disagree, Kelly, but I mean, they’re – they’re…
Kelly Higgins-Divine
Really?
Ted O’Brien
That their assumptions around asset life, their are assumptions around how long the the the plants would operate. I mean, if you look at the, you know, same plants only operate at that low level, that – that wasn’t based on any international review of how these power plants operate today. So I mean, this is a thing, right? So somebody might pick up a report and I’m not having a go at the Councillor, but I mean, you just played his recording, right?
Kelly Higgins-Divine
Yes, but he was – he cited the CSIRO. It’s not like he…
Ted O’Brien
No, look, I’ve seen the figures of the Japanese department, which are not academic figures. And these are figures that…
Kelly Higgins-Divine
Do we want to talk Fukushima as a nuclear reactor if we’re going to talk about Japan.
Ted O’Brien
No, I’m more than happy to. So even if you’ve look at that. I’ve been there. I’ve been there, Kelly, that was one of the first places. I needed to make sure that I am personally satisfied that this is absolutely the right thing for Australia. And I came back from there. I’m even more convinced, because, again, the Japanese with all their complicated history with this technology. They are embracing zero emissions nuclear energy. Why? It gets prices down, it keeps the lights on, and it is proven to be absolutely critical to any decarbonisation. Same in France, same in the United States same in Canada, same ion South Korea. Australia is on its own right now, with the Labor government thinking that it can have an electricity system with all-our-eggs-in-on-basket. I mean provided by wind and solar. Which are important by the way, you just don’t want the electricity system entirely weather dependent. And that’s why you need a balanced mix.
Kelly Higgins-Divine
Ted O’Brien it’s been a fascinating conversation. Thank you so much for your time.