19 June 2024
Peter Gleeson
The battle lines over Australia’s energy production have been drawn, and the coalition wants nuclear. Opposition leader Peter Dutton today unveiled his plan to build seven new nuclear power stations across the country by 2037. Now, here’s where they would go, Colli in WA, the Northern Power station at Port Augusta in South Australia, Loy Yang in the Latrobe Valley, in Victoria Ladell, and Mount Piper in New South Wales and Callide and Tarong, which is near Gladstone here in in Queensland. Now, we don’t know exactly how long these power plants could take to build. We don’t know how much they’ll cost. Or, we probably don’t even know how effective they might be in securing our energy production while cutting our emissions. But one person who can answer those questions is the coalition’s Shadow Minister for Climate Change and Energy, Ted O’Brien. He joins me on the show now. G’day, Ted.
Ted O’Brien
G’day, Gleeso.
Peter Gleeson
Thanks for joining us. I know how busy you have been today. But I just want to kick off with a couple of pressing questions. The biggest issue I see right now, the states are resisting this, even in Queensland. The likely LNP Premier, David Crisafulli resisting this. How do you get this thing over the line without them?
Ted O’Brien
Gleeso, look, I think it’s a really good question. We’ve been very upfront, since coming to opposition for a good two years now, that we are considering zero-emissions, nuclear energy. And today, we’ve gone that extra step to make it crystal clear, we’re taking it to the election, and we’ve nominated sites. From opposition, you don’t have the opportunity to sit down and negotiate with state governments. I’m not all that concerned to be honest. There hasn’t been much that’s come out today, from any of the states really, that comes as a surprise. Ultimately, we are doing this because we’ve got to solve a problem, which is prices are soaring, the lights are going out under Labor. And it’s only going to get worse from here. And as we have looked across the world and done an enormous amount of research and engagement, it is clear that only with a balanced mix of technologies, including zero-emissions nuclear energy, can you get prices down, keep the lights on and decarbonize. Now there’s a journey ahead. And I am supremely confident that with the Australian people giving us a mandate, state premiers and the like, we’ll ultimately move with that. It’s the people who count, they’re the ones who will ultimately have their say, Okay,
Peter Gleeson
Okay, this is what Queensland Premier, Steven Miles said earlier today.
Steven Miles [grab]
Now, we know that nuclear reactors are four to six times more expensive. So think about that. That means your electricity bill could go up four to six times to fund these nuclear reactors that the LNP want to build in Queensland. And that is not to mention how future generations, my kids, your kids, will need to manage dangerous radioactive nuclear waste forever. That’s what that plan means.
Peter Gleeson
Four to six times more than whatever the renewables costings have been put out by Labor? Is that correct? I was going to say.
Ted O’Brien
No, that’s not correct. I wouldn’t have a clue where the Premier gets that from. He probably just made it up. The reality is, as you look across the world, those countries which have nuclear energy in their mix, the power prices are far lower. Gleeso, if you look, last year, I went to Canada – went to Ontario. And they have between 50 and 60% of their mix, zero emissions nuclear energy, their households pay around about 14 cents a kilowatt hour. That compares to households in Australia that pay up to 56 cents a kilowatt hour. You know, you’ve got – we’re part of the G20, right? If you look at the other 19 members, in other words, these are the most advanced countries in the world., they either use nuclear energy today or they’re moving towards it. Why? Because it gets prices down and it keeps the lights on as you decarbonize. So we will have the mother of all scare campaigns… There is no doubt about it – you know Steven Miles and everyone else are lining up…
Peter Gleeson
They’ll be writing the ads now Ted.
Ted O’Brien
I reckon half of them probably already written, Gleeso, so – and they’ll have a chop. But look, I just don’t think you should ever be taking Australian for mugs – Australians. I mean, at the end of the day, they know very well as they look around the world that other countries are doing it far better than us. Right now, your listeners are paying among the highest electricity prices in the world. And Labor says that their policy is somehow working. The market operator says we might have blackouts as early as this summer. All this – and emissions have flatlined, by the way. And we have the most enormous damage to local environmental areas because you’ve got a renewables-only approach like all-eggs-in one-basket, which is just nuts.
Peter Gleeson
Just on that. We had Nick Cater from the Menzies Institute on the show a couple of weeks ago, and he – he was in Finland at the time and he just inspected the Finnish nuclear reactor capability and their energy bills were about eight cents, whatever that figure is, yeah. So you know, very much similar.
Ted O’Brien
And Gleeso the – in that country, you’ve got the Greens. The Greens Party, pro nuclear. And this is where it – I don’t know why the left of Australian politics are so tied to the 1940s on this stuff. I mean, honestly, the rest of the world is leaps ahead of us. We already are a nuclear nation, we’ve already got a reactor in Sydney that’s producing medical isotopes, you know, treating cancers and the like. We’re going to have nuclear propelled submarines, we’ve got the biggest reserves of uranium that powers nuclear plants, here in Australia. But we’ve got a Labor government in Canberra, or together with state governments, refusing to even contemplate the possibility of us having zero-emissions nuclear energy, it just doesn’t stack up.
Peter Gleeson
I’m talking to Ted O’Brien, Shadow Minister for Climate Change and Energy. Chris Bowen, your compatriot, came out today and referred to your proposal as a joke. How do you how do you respond to that?
Ted O’Brien
Well, dear old Chris Bowen. This is the same fellow, Gleeso, who looked all of us in the eye ahead of the last election, and promised a $275 reduction in household power bills. To this day, he still refuses to say that won’t be met – $235. There are some households who would have to be getting paid an extra $1,000 by Chris Bowen, for him to meet that promise. The issue we’ve got, and politics will always get in the way and you can discount a bit of the political stuff, but there’s something far more important here behind the politics and that is the lights are going to go out. Prices will soar, jobs will be shed, industries will collapse. It’s happening now. We will be leaving Australians poorer, and our nation weaker if we continue down this all-eggs-in-one-basket “renewables-only” approach. We do have a solution for that. And that is a balanced mix. It’s what’s happening across the world. They’re getting it right, we’re not. We need to catch up in join our peer nations.
Peter Gleeson
Where will the nuclear waste go?
Ted O’Brien
The nuclear waste will be managed, as it is already, well around the world. It gets managed onsite throughout the life of the asset. And then after the life of the asset, it gets transferred to a permanent repository. Right now, the Albanese Government is looking for a permanent repository, because we will be managing the spent fuel – the high level waste – from the submarines – nuclear propelled submarines from AUKUS so – and we’re cooperating with the Albanese Government. I mean, if you listen to Steven Miles – what you just played before, and he was talking about nuclear waste. Well, you know, what the Premier probably just doesn’t know, is right now his Federal Labor colleagues are out there looking for a permanent waste repository, because we have a bipartisan agreement for nuclear-propelled submarines. So, you know, nuclear energy or not, Australia will be managing high level spent fuel from the nuclear reactors for submarines. And by the way, you know, since the, the 1950s, we’ve been looking at our nuclear reactor here in Australia. For a long time, now, we have almost – almost 70 years now, we have been managing the waste that’s come from that reactor successfully. So, you know, this is well managed around the world. I don’t know any industry that actually is more capable when it comes to waste management, then the civil nuclear industry.
Peter Gleeson
Ted, some of your critics today are pointing to the coalition, Peter Dutton’s commentary during the voice debate about the fact that the Uluru Statement and Anthony Albanese wasn’t giving voters enough details, but still asking them to vote on the idea. Now, the coalition doesn’t yet have costings or exact construction dates for nuclear. You’re asking people to vote for it. Is this situation different? And will you be coming out with an exhaustive plan leading into the next election that satisfies those critics?
Ted O’Brien
Gleeso, it’s a really good question, because I think it’s a fair criticism of the voice referendum that the Prime Minister failed to provide information to the Australian people and just thought he could win it on the vibe. We’ve never been like that. We’re certainly not like that under Peter Dutton. And even today, what we have done, we have been completely transparent and open about the role we see for zero-emissions nuclear energy. Including announcing seven locations. To this day, despite Labor being in government, not in opposition, it still will not tell the Australian people how much it plans – its plan is going to cost to roll out a all-eggs-in-one-basket renewables approach. I mean the University of Princeton, University of Queensland, University of Melbourne, they put a similar scenario around about $1.2 to $1.5 trillion. So, Labor still today, will not provide the same degree of transparency as…
Peter Gleeson
But you’ll have your costings out before the next election.
Ted O’Brien
But we will certainly – we’re doing costings, we’re doing the financing, we’re doing the economics and all of that will be released, Gleeso, in due course.
Peter Gleeson
I think it’s super important, Ted. Because you know, as I said at the outset, this is a game changer. You know, Australians -and I’ve got some early polling results here in front of me from a Nine poll suggesting that, you know, two in three Australians are supporting what you guys have put out today. But I think that’ll dissipate quickly, if there’s not enough meat on the bone, if that makes sense.
Ted O’Brien
Yeah, so look, we put a lot of meat on the bones today. This isn’t the last thing we’ll be saying about our balanced energy mix, not just about zero-emissions nuclear energy, by the way, Gleeso, but about renewables, about gas, about the market as a whole. Ultimately, our objective is to get power prices under control. This is a cheaper, cleaner, consistent energy policy. And zero emissions nuclear energy is just a part of that policy. And so there’s a lot more to say, in this space, I tell you, but we’ve already got a lot of meat on the bones today, we put more meat on, and there’ll be more to come. In the interim, by the way, if you happen to be speaking to anyone from the Labor Party, please ask them – where is that $275 reduction power bill? That they still haven’t provided any modelling and they’re in government, zero modeling about how they’re going to achieve their plan.
Peter Gleeson
Just quickly, Ted, just quickly. How do you deal with the Greens and Teals? Say, for example, you know, you do win the next election. And they’re a formidable force. We know that the Greens are and the Teals are a formidable force. You can imagine they’ll be dead against this. How do you – how do you, sort of, herd those cats together?
Ted O’Brien
Well, I think it’s a – it’s not a dissimilar question that you’d put to some of the state jurisdictions, Gleeso, and that is would the Teals seriously say that if the Australian people gave us a mandate to introduce zero-emissions nuclear energy, they would refuse to respect it? They would refuse to respect the will of the Australian people? Look, there are a lot of political differences, of course, among different Parties and individuals. But if there’s one thing we have in common, we are all subject to the will of the people. We’ve been very transparent as a coalition. We are actually really excited about what we have announced because this really will be a new era of economic growth for our country, especially those regions we’ve talked about, you know, Tarong, and Callide, that we’re looking at in Queensland. They’re going to be at the forefront. We’re talking about assets that last almost 100 years – underpinning jobs, careers, communities. I think the more people understand the benefits that will accrue to all Australians, but in particular, those regional communities that host nuclear power plants, the more likely it is that the country will see the sense in us embracing a balanced mix, which the rest of the world is doing. So that’s going to influence other politicians.
Peter Gleeson
Ted O’Brien really appreciate your time.
Ted O’Brien
Thanks very much.