TED O’BRIEN – SHADOW MINISTER FOR CLIMATE CHANGE AND ENERGY
FEDERAL MEMBER FOR FAIRFAX
TRANSCRIPT
INTERVIEW WITH GARY HARDGRAVE, 4BC
23 January 2024
Topics: Queensland blackouts, Paris Agreement, Energy prices
Gary Hardgrave
Ted O’Brien is the member for Fairfax on the Sunshine Coast. He’s also Peter Dutton’s, Shadow Minister for Energy, joins me, Ted, the power grid in Queensland. In Queensland! Is under significant pressure. I thought it only happened in Victoria, South Australia, New South Wales. What the heck is going on here?
Ted O’Brien
Yeah, it’s unbelievable. Gary, I think the rest of the world looks to a country like Australia and says, these guys have got everything. They’ve got every possible resource. The last problem Australians should be having is with its energy system. And then within Australia, you look at everything that we have in Queensland, and yet here we are. I mean, sure there were, there were some transmission lines and whatnot that brought down some of the electricity yesterday. But if you, if you look at what the market operator said their main concern yesterday, especially night time, was we were running out, running out of energy, which is why, as you say, public servants were told to, you know, turn off the computers, only ever use one printer, you know, close the curtains. I mean, seriously, we were running out of energy. It’s not like summer is a new thing. We cannot have an electricity system in Australia that cannot handle a summer! A summers day.
Gary Hardgrave
It seems to happen about every year. Around this time we have summer Ted, and the point that the energy market regulator was saying, slow down your use of electricity, we could have blackouts. But the key thing for me is we have this beautiful black stuff in the ground a few hundred kilometres northwest of where I am, here in Brisbane, and it’s called coal, and you actually can use that to turn turbines to actually create electricity. It’s been the genius move that made Queensland’s prosperity a certainty, and yet we’re turning our backs on that. Now, I know you’ve got energy policy stuff that you’ve got to deal with, and nuclear as part of the options, but we need more electricity and we need it to be cheaper. When’s it going to happen?
Ted O’Brien
So if you think of last night Gary, when it was most vulnerable our electricity grid, it was between 6:30 and 7pm at night. Coal and gas were providing 82%. So if you start taking coal and gas out of our electricity system before there’s a replacement. It’s all over red rover. And this is the madness that we’re trying to fight against. The Albanese Labor Government is absolutely insistent that they need to close coal plants prematurely. They do that and the lights go out. I mean, if even last night, with 82% coming from coal and gas the operators still thought we were nearly going to have blackouts right across suburbs, telling public servants to stop working so we keep the lights on. Can you imagine if that coal and gas were not in the system? This is what Labor wants to do. Which is why we’re fighting against it. It’s not just keeping the lights on. Prices are through the roof, as you know, up on the Sunshine Coast, you know there’s a, there’s a fisheries business up here, and only last week they lost power for a few hours. Well, they lost $6,000 in revenue. The same business are now paying around $100,000 more for their electricity than they were only a few years ago. So as a country, not only are we getting poorer, not only are we having less reliable electricity, we’re paying more for it. And that makes us weaker as a country, which is why we have to take this so seriously. It’s why Dutton is showing the leadership to say we have to do something about this, and we’re tackling the debate. And they’re hard ones, talking nuclear energy, talking the need to make sure you don’t close coal prematurely, talking about the need to have more gas. A lot of people don’t like to hear that. But it is the only way as a country, that we could have prices that are reasonable and keep the lights on.
Gary Hardgrave
I want to go with Peter Dutton in a moment, but I can say I was talking to a bloke today, and his great sin is he employs hundreds of Queenslanders in a business around Brendale, which was another part of South East Queensland, lost power, and his company’s based there, and the Wi Fi unit on one side of the road, the factory on the other. And so he lost all communication to the rest of the country, and worse still the server for other branch officers around the country was based in a powerless part of South East Queensland. I mean, the impact on productivity for his business was very, very noticeable. This is the problem, energy security, the cost of electricity, how we generate it, all these things that none of us should be worrying about, Ted. We just want to be able to turn the power on and know that once we’ve done that, we’ve made good use of it. We’ve got all the mod cons going electric, this electric that electric vehicles, and yet we’ve got to pay so so much for it. The whole thing, the economics of it, the generating ability behind the scenes, this is hurting a lot of everyday Australians.
Ted O’Brien
Look, it is. At a very personal level. You think Gary about senior citizens. You think about those sick, those who are old in in the heat, lights go out, those that rely on having medicines in the fridge. It creates anxiety. And to your point about just businesses, I mean, we have the lowest productivity that we’ve had in years. I mean, we’ve gone back.. over 6% in productivity since Labor came to office. We’ve got record high insolvencies. Right now, Australia is closing its doors, and when you find out about why? Why are businesses closing? It is because they just can’t afford to stay open. What can’t they afford? Energy. Meanwhile, other parts of the world are saying we need a balanced mix other parts of the world… I mean, I was in South Korea last week trying to understand their at their industrial capability. They are about 30% coal, 30% gas, 30% nuclear, about 10% renewables. They’ve got a balanced mix, because you have to plan for an electricity system to handle the worst possible day of the year. But we don’t do that in Australia. Under Labor, we are going all in. It has to be only wind and solar. This week, we’ve got the Prime Minister and the energy minister saying that our big aluminium smelters can run on wind and solar alone. Nowhere in the world is doing this.
Gary Hardgrave
It’s not just running on wind and solar. Ted O’Brien, it’s running on $2 billion worth of taxpayer subsidies to make it happen. I mean, it’s a nonsense. It is a complete nonsense.
Ted O’Brien
Yeah, look, it is. And it’s sad, but we got to fight this is why, you know, I get fired up about it, Gary. We have to be very straight with the Australian people about the problems we face. They’re challenging conversations to have, but we are going to become a poorer and weaker nation unless we drop Labor’s renewables only approach.
Gary Hardgrave
Why are we.. why, why are we reconfirming? Why is Peter Dutton reconfirming a commitment to Paris? Why is he saying that we’ll stay in on the Paris agreement on climate I mean, I don’t believe that that is the message a lot of everyday Australians want to hear. People want to back in the bold vision about nuclear being part of the mix. The the multi faceted approach to electricity generation. But I..he threw me a curve ball yesterday. I had a go at him about it and I said, come on, explain it. So, Ted, you’re his energy spokesman. Can you explain why staying in with Paris is the right thing to do. Why is that message right?
Ted O’Brien
So Gary, if you think of the key things we need to do to fix the mess we’re in, and we’ve already talked about some of them, right, you need to make sure that you don’t close the coal prematurely. Bring in more gas. You need to bring in nuclear energy. Can we do all of these things and still remain committed to net zero electricity grid by 2050? We can. And we know we can, because other countries are doing it and getting their their products to market cheaper. And that’s what gives us confidence that, no, no, we can stick with net zero and fix the damn thing. But here’s what we can’t do, and this is why I don’t blame some people going, well, hang on. What? What about this Paris Agreement? What we can’t afford to do is continue with what Labor has set us up. So you’ve got this Paris Agreement, this international agreement. Anthony Albanese came to office and he committed, he legislated, a 43% reduction in our emissions by by 2030. The 82% renewables target. All of this is garbage. Those aspects of the Albanese government’s plan for how we decarbonise, we absolutely reject and Peter Dutton has been very strong on that from the get go. It hasn’t taken blackouts to tell us that. The country will be poorer and weaker if we decarbonize based on Labor’s plan. And that is why we are we are saying no when it comes to Labor’s 82% renewables, no to Labor’s plan for 89% EV sales by 2030 we’re saying no to Labor’s 43% target, which just will not be achieved. So look, we’re being very clear on that. We haven’t, you know, some people don’t like it. But again, if Peter Dutton has one thing, it’s absolute strength and and he’s been strong from the get go. This energy system is a mess.
Gary Hardgrave
But the clear messaging Ted is missing. The messaging is missing when he says, stay in Paris, I think what, what it means is that you stay in on the negotiations, but you try and change your part of that negotiation, so you’re still staying in on the conversation. By staying in on Paris is that a fair assessment, or have I got it wrong?
Ted O’Brien
No, I think you could assess it that way. To put it a different way. We signed up as a Coalition to 2050 and in the Paris Agreement, and we don’t want to Welch on that deal. We think we can do it in a way that will leave Australians as as a country living in a country that is rich, strong and fiercely independent. But what we do want to change is the Albanese government’s weak and dangerous Paris components. Okay, so when they’ve come in and they’ve gotten all giddy and excited thinking they’re going to change the world, and they’ve signed Australia up to stuff which is just making us poor and weak. We will not accept that, which is why, you know, a lot of people on the left have complained, saying, but why won’t the Coalition sign up to Labor’s 2030 commitments under the Paris?
Gary Hardgrave
Because they’re going to kill the economy. That’s why it’s not hard to figure.
Ted O’Brien
Exactly. The only way you do that is, is Australians lose so, no, we’re not going to do that.
Gary Hardgrave
Well. I mean, I like, I like, where Donald Trump’s got to. He said I’m out of Paris. But I guess that America is big and bold. China, for all intents and purposes, not following Paris, neither is Indonesia, neither is India. I just don’t know why we’re in it. I just don’t understand why we’re in it, except for the fact that we’re a smaller fish, and I guess we get trampled to death, don’t we, if we back out.
Ted O’Brien
Yeah. And look, when I speak to a lot of our own big Australian companies, they they’re really keen on us remaining in Paris with that net zero, 2050, target, because they’re selling Australian goods in a competitive marketplace, and it’s in their interest to make sure that, you know, they can look their customers in the eye and say, yeah, Australia is decarbonizing. But what we’re not going to do under a Coalition is this daft idea of, you know, these targets, by 2030 that is just going to kill the whole economy.
Gary Hardgrave
Well, 2050 is a little further down the track. I mean, heaven knows. You know, the Sunshine Coast might hold their own Olympics by 2050 I mean, a lot of things can change between now and then. Nuclear is going to be part of the mix. And I don’t see how you can decarbonise if that’s so important, and I’m not sure it is, but if it is so important, without nuclear, so you’ve just got to keep and go, well on the thing, that is the difference, I guess Ted.
Ted O’Brien
Yeah, I think that’s right, Gary. And we’ve got to remember that no electricity grid in any advanced economy operates today without a source of always on 24/7 base load power. Right now that’s coal, and as coal plants retire from the system, it has to be nuclear. Labor wants it to be entirely weather dependent renewables. It’s just not going to work.
Gary Hardgrave
Ted O’Brien always good to talk to you. Thank you. I think you’ve given some clarity around this, but I muscled up about Peter. I want clear language, and I just invite you as one of his senior shadows to make sure that language continues to be clear. Because people don’t like this current government. They want some future. They want some certainty, and they certainly need that leadership. Good to talk to you, sir.